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Indy
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Maybe it is because i had too much caffeine today but that went right over my head :-)
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Indy
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BTW I think Avastar should stick around. Never let a disagreement run you off. Why? Because in the end you may have the last laugh. There is nothing more rewarding than an "I told you so"
"I think God gives us children so death won't come as such a disappointment." - Two and a Half Men |
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chrisisasavage
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There is no such thing as too much caffeine  |
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chrisisasavage
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Why do these have to be one or the other. One of the arguments Robert Felix has made is that both the Antarctic and Arctic melts are volcanic in origin, and will exacerbate the cooling (due to increased ocean salinity). I guess Avastar is not reading this any more, but I wonder why people assume this is being caused by global warming. |
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thedood
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well it's not like the air temperatures in the Arctic are in the 40s or 50s or something. It's 36 in Barrow, AK right now! (at 6PM AKDT)
"The rain it raineth every day, and every night also -- week in and week out, from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, there is nothing but rain, rain, rain, 'The windows of heaven are opened up.' Pluvius, grieved at some earth-giving wrong, weeps as if he never would dry up." - Overland Press (Olympia, WA), December 1861 |
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StillHere
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| Quoting chrisisasavage - posted on 8/27/2008 at 20:11 |
Why do these have to be one or the other. One of the arguments Robert Felix has made is that both the Antarctic and Arctic melts are volcanic in origin, and will exacerbate the cooling (due to increased ocean salinity). I guess Avastar is not reading this any more, but I wonder why people assume this is being caused by global warming.
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It seems intuitively correct. Like the assumption that eating cholesterol will clog your arteries and lead to a heart attack. Heck, half the people who have heart attacks have so-called "normal" cholesterol levels and blood pressure! |
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Indy
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My wife works in a cardiac intensive care unit and you'd be amazed how many times I hear about cases where people who lead healthy and active lives come in with serious heart problems (heart attacks or whatever) and die in their 30's. Then you have people that drink and smoke all the time living to be in their 80's and 90's. Remember George Burns? He smoked a cigar every day and lived to be nearly 100.
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Indy
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This is certainly a tale of two hemispheres.
New Record for Antarctic Total Ice Extent?
Last year was the largest ice extent ever (since satellite records began in 1979) and this year may top the record again.
So why two completely different results?
Antarctica was supposed to be the place that global warming was going to hit first and the hardest. Yet it is doing the exact opposite of what we were promised. It has cooled and the ice extent is significant.
So which is the fluke? The northern hemisphere or southern hemisphere?
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Indy
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I'm curious how bad things really are in the northern hemisphere. It is amazing how using different graph styles can alter your perception of reality.
These two charts analyze the same data basically but in the end tell two different stories.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu...here/IMAGES/current.area.jpg
and
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu...a.ice.anomaly.timeseries.jpg
The first link shows total ice area and things really don't look all that off. Second link shows anomalies and is geared more towards "the sky is falling" crowd.
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MattN
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Indy, that Antarctic article was from LAST year. Unfortunately, it seems that the Antarctic ice is struggling right now. It has shown a jaggesd saw-tooth growth/retreat pattern recently. I was initially very confident of a new record, but now much less so.
Original Image: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu
Running a few 100K below last year right now. There better be a big freeze soon, or this will not be a record year. |
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Indy
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Its probably a little late in the year to set a new record. But it still is amazing how completely different the south is from the north. They are going in opposite directions (in more ways than one lol).
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sunsettommy
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| Quoting Indy - posted on 8/27/2008 at 19:56 |
BTW I think Avastar should stick around. Never let a disagreement run you off. Why? Because in the end you may have the last laugh. There is nothing more rewarding than an "I told you so"
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Actually he is lucky I was NOT around to post a couple of science papers explaining why the north ice cap has been getting smaller in recent years.
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sunsettommy
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| Quoting Avastar - posted on 8/4/2008 at 19:06 |
Well, you all can argue about the new Ice Age all you want, but it's not going to happen until after the Arctic Ice Cap melts. And we're on track to see a worse melt than last year. My read on this is about, oh, say 20% loss in 30 days?
Wait until the papers get a hold of this, huh?
This is the satellite view 7/4/08:
Original Image: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu
This is the satellite view yesterday 8/3/08:
Original Image: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu
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But of course you knew that the "Northwest Passage" has been open numerous years since 1903. 
That would indicate that icemelt has been pronounced in previous decades. |
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sunsettommy
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Are you implying that an ice free arctic ocean will cause a "tipping point" in the planets climate? |
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sunsettommy
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LOL,
Most 1 year old ice melts away in a summer.No matter how much of the ocean is initially covered.In the beginning of the short melt season.
But hold on and look further in this thread.Where I show what is the real cause of decreasing ice cover trend in recent years. |
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sunsettommy
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| Quoting Avastar - posted on 8/4/2008 at 21:27 |
| Quote: |
There's nothing wrong with the ice. Situation normal. Return to your homes.....
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LOL ... OMG .. you really DO work for the government! The Northwest passage is OPEN for business ... and you say go home? You crack me up!
Matt, I have a hundred dollars ready, willing and able ... wanna bet? 
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Since you are still lurking.
I must point out that the "Northwest Passage" has been open in past years.
Hopefully I can dig up that impressive list showing how many years there was a clear open trail to traverse. |
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sunsettommy
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| Quoting Avastar - posted on 8/24/2008 at 14:50 |
Matt, can you tell us where that chart came from? Looks like the data source is clearly different, NSIDC (National Snow & Ice Data Center - University of Colorado) http://nsidc.org shows today's gap between 2007 and 2008 being about 500,000 sq km, vs. yours indicates about 1,000,000 sq km.
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LOL,
So you do admit that as of that date.There is 500,000 sq km more ice cover than last year.
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sunsettommy
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| Quoting Indy - posted on 8/27/2008 at 19:56 |
BTW I think Avastar should stick around. Never let a disagreement run you off. Why? Because in the end you may have the last laugh. There is nothing more rewarding than an "I told you so"
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No he won't.
He has not once posted anything to show that low ice levels is a cause of concern to the planets climate.Not only that.He is apparently ignorant of published science papers.That explains the real cause of the declining ice cover in the Arctic region.Global warming is way down the list as a cause of the loss.
All he has posted was a countdown in ice melt.With a few irrelevant Polar Bears swimming offshore pablums I have come to expect from an AGW believer.
He is running on irrelevant concerns.Ice loss scaremongering is an awsome propaganda with little scientific relevance to a whole.Look at how he and all those chicken little envirowackos are pointedly ignoring the other poles record ice extent levels the past 2 years.
He is running on empty. |
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sunsettommy
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Here are some links to read:
This one has a few science papers mentioned.
Are the ice caps melting?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/03/goddard_polar_ice/
This one is from NASA:
NASA Examines Arctic Sea Ice Changes Leading to Record Low in 2007
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/e...earth/quikscat-20071001.html
Another one from NASA/JPL:
NASA Sees Arctic Ocean Circulation Do an About-Face
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-131
Here you can see the ice,snow and water with fixed cameras.You can see the region in real time.
Live from the North Pole!
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/gallery_np.html
Then we have this about the Northwest Passage.Internal links describing trips through the "impassable" route:
Bad reporting about the Northwest Passage issue.
http://freestudents.blogspot...about-northwest-passage.html |
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sunsettommy
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From the late John Daly's website:
The Northwest Passage (9 Sept 00)
http://www.john-daly.com/press/press-00b.htm#northwest
The next two links.Have additional internal links in them worth following.
Tuesday, April 29, 2008
More on the Northwest Passage
http://tomnelson.blogspot.com/search/label/northwest_passage
Thursday, January 17, 2008
More on that Northwest Passage misinformation
Well you get the drift.
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MountainManMike
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somebody came out guns a blazin', lol. |
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sunsettommy
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| Quoting Avastar - posted on 8/24/2008 at 15:39 |
Here's my argument: See all the "green" ice in this false color image? That is sea ice at the ~50% concentration level. Meaning it's half ice, half open water. Not solid - not walk across type ice ... but small blocks and slush. MY POINT: we still have 3 weeks left in the season ... plenty of time for all of that pretty "green" area to melt away ... leaving us at nearly the same level as last year. And, the SLOPE of the melt curve this year indicates we are not done yet (it's melting at 28,000 sq km per day.)
Look, it is NOT whether or not we see this year's meltdown actually EXCEED last years numbers. One year of radical melting can be viewed at as a fluke ... but, TWO years in row ... and science must see the data as a TREND.
Original Image: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu
Finally ... here is the REAL picture to be looking at ... not just the 5 year graph.
http://nsidc.org/sotc/sea_ice.html
Original Image: nsidc.org
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Your last chart shows that the decline began during the worldwide cooling trend.
Around 1967.
How do you explain that? |
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Indy
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But lets play nicely. Avastar might not agree with me and doesn't want to participate anymore but lets not try and make it open season on this user ok?
"I think God gives us children so death won't come as such a disappointment." - Two and a Half Men |
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MountainManMike
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what r the consequences if all of the sea ice was to melt in the arctic? |
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MattN
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Nothing??? |
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posted on 8/27/2008 at 19:55
